The following is an auto-generated transcript of an episode of OFNTSC's Podcast "Ontario First Nations Technically Speaking 'Cast" hosted by Chelsey Johnson.
In this episode, our Executive Director, Melanie Debassige, shares insights on International Women’s Day, her professional journey, influences, plans for the organization's future, and the benefits of CrossFit, along with the importance of carving out time to indulge in a good book!
Listen to the episode here.
00:04 - Chelsey (Host)
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to a very special episode of OFNTSC's Technically Speaking podcast.
00:14
Today is our very first International Women's Day episode, and the call to action for International Women's Day this year is to invest in women and accelerate progress, and we have someone with us here today who exemplifies just that, investing in herself and many other women who work here at OFNTSC. She's also the very first female executive director in the organization's history, our very own Executive Director and fearless leader, Melanie DeBosighe. Melanie is Anishinaabe Kwe, from M'Chigeeng, First Nation. She is an accomplished academic and recipient of numerous awards and recognitions, such as being named Canada's most powerful women top 100, as well as receiving recognition in the Canadian Board Diversity Council's Diversity 50 as a highly qualified board candidate. So, without further ado, I would like to very much welcome my friend and mentor, melanie DeBassige. Hi, Melanie, [hi, chelsea, hi.] And just to start us out today, I would love to hear more about your experience growing up and how you got into the position that you're in today, and what that journey has been like for you from your perspective.
01:33 - Melanie (Guest)
So, growing up, I grew up in a First Nation community on Manitoulin Island, Chigeng First Nation. That's on Lake Huron and it's the largest freshwater island in the world. And I say I came from very humble beginnings. You know, I was raised by a single mom and all around me growing up I seen strong women. So my mother, my grandmother and watching my grandmother work hard you know she was a janitor for the community and also the tribal council and she did those jobs over 30 years. You know, just seeing her and the effort that she put into her work, I remember her telling me you know you don't want to do this kind of work, always stay in school, and so I remember those words. Then also, looking at my mom, you know she actually received a little bit of money from the bank to build a house and you know she couldn't complete the house in total, so for a while there we had to haul water and so I had to do a lot of like heavy lifting as a child, and I was the oldest of five siblings, so I was always having to take care of my younger siblings too, kind of being like an auntie and carrying them around, watching them play, taking them and keeping an eye on them all the time. But then also, you know, going to school in the community, having really great friends around me, having those childhood experiences. I remember teachers taking us into the bush for walks and we did land-based learning. Even the kids on my block, we would go snaring rabbits on weekends and really living like an outdoorsy life. I recall my mother sending me back to the lake because I brought home two large mason jars, one of leeches and one of crayfish, and she sent me back to the lake. You know, "go put those back in the water." But I, you know, I didn't think like, this was just a beautiful, fulsome life.
03:39
And then, when I started high school, I moved with my father. He was the chief of Chippewas of the Thames First Nation at the time and you know, going there from almost it's not a remote community because Manitoulin's accessible by boat and by a road, but moving to a community, Chippewas of the Thames, you know it's 20 minutes outside of London, Ontario. So it was like a very strange feeling because it was like culture shock and we were sent out by bus to the city to go to high school. You know, getting on that bus, being so terrified because I didn't know anyone, and the friendships I made within the first couple of months, those are really strong friendships that I still have and nurture to this day.
04:28
And I must say that all the friends I made, you know they're all professional Women and they're all doing really well. But you know, watching them, they put their families first, you know, and then their careers are second and how they set their priorities, like that really touches some of the cultural teachings that you know we have as an Anishnabek and I know I watch them and like they might look up to me, but I also look up to them. You know, because they're role models for me, because some of my friends, you know they have the honor of being grandparents. Now I'm not at that stage yet but you know I watch how they are with their grandchildren and you know that circle of life, you know, knowing that, you know when, watching them when their kids were born and now seeing their grandchildren, and you know they tell me, you, this great experience, what it's like having a grandchild, and like, "well, I can't wait", hopefully that happens for me one day.
05:26
I would say that the beginnings I come from, they're very humble and you know I always remember where I'm from, regardless of you know, sometimes people thinking that you forget. You don't forget. Yeah, those are teachings that are embedded with you.
05:40 - Chelsey (Host)
Yeah, for sure it sounds like you had a very happy childhood and you know like being on the land land-based learning is a new phrase but it's like you were doing that right before. It was kind of even a big thing. And I'm curious to know, like how did you? What made you pursue education? Because sometimes it's often not promoted very heavily within First Nations. Like even myself, I recall kind of there was no expectation for me really to go to post-secondary or to go to university. So it's like that's kind of a challenge that a lot of First Nations youth faces, even just like feeling like they belong in those places. Like how did that happen for you to go into that career and to pursue that education?
06:22 - Melanie (Guest)
So when I was about 13, 14 years old, my dad started dating a beautiful woman from Six Nations and her name she actually, she's been gone from us almost a year, and her name was Linda Staasz and she started Six Nations Polytech and, remembering what my grandmother told me about education and you know, you don't want to be a janitor and she's not knocking she never knocked. She took pride in her work but she just said "go to school, you can do well." When I met Linda, she encouraged me. You know, finish high school. The way out of a situation you're in, she said, is through education, because nobody can ever take that from you.
07:05
So she pushed me. She pushed me after I finished high school. She pushed me to take a course at Polytech which would prepare me for university, like teach me how to write papers and organize my time, and she said time management was key. And then I went into the university access program at Polytech where again I made friends that there's a few that I've made that are still there in my life, like 100%, and when I see them like, it's like no time passes. And again they're all professional people who also went to Polytech and I think that's the best learning, is if we have these First Nations institutions that are created by our people for our people and we support them.
07:47
Look at the success that we've shown. And, going back to the first question, because sometimes when I do interviews or people ask me well, how did you overcome adversity? Well, for one, when you're young, I didn't know that I was in an Indian Day School. It wasn't until I reflected later on as an adult. But, knowing that there was a future out there and that I could change things through the education that I receive and knowing how things change, I knew that I had to like first get an undergraduate degree and then keep moving forward. And you know Polytech, Linda, they gave me the opportunity and the supports so that I could succeed. Because after that I went right into mainstream university and I probably didn't really stop going to school. I'm going to say I- I'm still in school, Like I'm always having to do some professional development, just to and just lifelong learning and stay current. Right, yeah, you have to stay current. So, yeah, I attribute that to the strong women in my life, but also, like our own First Nations institutions, I encourage people to attend them.
09:03 - Chelsey (Host)
Yeah, I have been working together for almost five years now and just in our experience together, I know you to be very passionate, very motivated, very tenacious, very go-getter, and it's been awesome working with you in that regard. But where do you think that that comes from?
09:24 - Melanie (Guest)
I'm gonna say honestly, I believe that it's it's inherent. I believe that we have blood memory and I look at my ancestors and why I'm here. Because I look at both sides of my family and my grandparents on both sides of my family, my great grandparents or my mom, even, either attended an Indian day school or they were all in residential school right, and knowing that history and not even knowing what a residential school was until my dad disclosed to me when I was 15 years old what that was, I didn't even know they existed and seeing that they survived. And I'm still here. And I'm here now to change things, to change the way people work with First Nations people, the way our organizations, you know are, are operated, doing better governance, restoring jurisdiction, the rightful jurisdiction, to our people.
10:24
I believe that was already in my bloodline. And also, seeing, like my father, I had no idea that he was at the time the national Chief of the AFN who changed the National Indian Brotherhood into the Assembly of First Nations (AFN). I had no idea, you know, my dad was a radical and a fighter for First Nations, right, and it was later on, in high school, I found out, you know, he was the author of section 35 of the Canadian Constitution. I had no idea so yeah coming from that background I was.I was kind of questioning myself "geez, I got big boots to fill"
10:57 - Chelsey (Host)
yeah, well, it's good, instead of instead of shying away from that and just thinking, oh, like you know, I don't know how I could ever do anything like that. Like you know, you have the attitude where, like you said, it's just inherent, like you kind of just like I want to fill those shoes and I want to carry on that legacy. So that's really amazing. And what you mentioned a couple of some of the the women role models in your life your mom, your grandma and Linda like is there anybody else who you had kind of growing up or even along now, like your, your current career, who has been a really strong female role model for you?
11:33 - Melanie (Guest)
so and on top of that, my aunties, who were closer to me in age than my mom. They were. They were strong role models but hard-working women. But I would have to say, the woman who gave me my first real job, you know, and she was really tough on me, it was Dawn Madahbee and you know she, like I, always tell people you want to have the first job and be amazing in your career, you need to work with her or somebody like her, because she teaches you, you know how to record things, policies, abiding by policies, ensuring that you're transparent, you're financially accountable and that you work hard and you take pride in your work. You know, and she's not afraid to call you out on it. So I called that part of my career, like, my career boot camp.
12:25
Yeah, because everyone who has worked for her is successful [mm-hmm] so there was a core group of us that you know worked with her and every one of us that work there they're a CEO somewhere, how running a, an indigenous organization. So you know, standing there with that pride of knowing she trained all of us she's, when we all see her and we get together, it just happens now and then we end up at the same event or conference. You know she's like wow, she goes.
12:56
"I feel like these are my children you know, and I raised you and, like you know, you guys went out and you know you took on the world." So it's really nice to have somebody like that. So, seeing what she did for me and like the rest of the team that worked with her, and knowing that, okay, I'm here as the executive director at OFN TSC, what can I do to nurture the women and the men that work for us? Mm-hmm because, whether you're indigenous or non-indigenous, you're still an ally and you still want better for our communities. So that's the approach that I like to take
13:26 - Chelsey (Host)
yeah, and it's very relevant to the theme for international women's day this year, which is investing in women accelerating progress. Can you speak a little bit more to that about, like how you personally, but also how OFNTSC like how you like to invest in women growing and advancing in their careers?
13:51 - Melanie (Guest)
So I think first you have to like when you talk to somebody and if they're not going to school and they don't want to advance, you have to find out why mm-hmm and so you try to find out, you know the things they like, they don't like and, you know, encourage them.
14:01
Well, you know what kind of job do you want, or where do you want to be? Or maybe you're happy where you're at right now and you just want to excel in that position and make things better. [Right], because everyone has different goals. But knowing that these people maybe they didn't get those type of mentors that I did and being that person there for them to say, why don't you go to school here, we'll pay for that or we'll encourage you to do that do you need time off to study? Alright, go study, because we're not only making an investment here for the corporation if they choose and a staff chooses to leave, they're going to go work for another nation, which is still nation building, and that's nationhood. And so you're making a personal investment with somebody, but also an education investment, and whether they're here in the organization thriving or thriving somewhere else, it's still gonna have positive impacts on our communities.
14:56 - Chelsey (Host)
Oh, one hundred percent yeah, and I mean I can say I can say first hand how you know, just in our relationship that we've had over the last five years, you've been very encouraging to me if I ever wanted to do a professional advancement and helping me grow within my own career as well. So I thank you for that, Mel, and just always being available and always willing to talk to me about literally anything right. So it's been a super fun time working together. But I also I'm really curious to know, just as a woman in a leadership role here at OFNTSC which you know the technical services can be a very male-dominated industry, have you had any specific challenges that you find that you've had to overcome so far?
15:44 - Melanie (Guest)
Well, I think throughout my entire career it's been a challenge. It's breaking those glass ceilings and trailblazing, doing things that you know that I hope make it easier for other. You know young Indigenous women coming up that they don't have to face all of that. You know not making and paving the way for them, but you know just breaking those glass ceilings. So you know, coming into any organization I walk into, including OFNTSC, you know I do I'm going to say a scan In the MBA program. They call it a PESTLE.
16:23
[Oh yeah, I know yeah], and you have to look and do a scan and see where the organization's at, see where the people are at, see what the culture looks like, and then you decide what you're going to tackle first, what's going to be the priority and if it's getting the organization financially stable and on track, like that was probably one of the biggest challenges at first was to get that relationship built with our funder, building the relationships with the communities, the voting members, leadership, and then tackling the governance reforms. [Yeah], I think that was the most challenging part and you know, you yourself you went through all of that. You were there by my side, meeting with the funders on a weekly basis, going through the governance reforms and what we did here as an organization to encourage and to ensure moving forward that this organization has the transparency, the accountability, you know, and then voices from other people. It's a great governance model and it's working.
17:29
And we moved from a representation board to a skills-based board. And the main reason for that and it was a hard concept for people to grasp, the main reason for that is, you know, strategically, how are we going to be an organization in the next 25 years, you know, are we still going to be relevant? Are we even going to be needed? Yeah, and in order to push a strategy in hoping that all of our nations, you know, have all of their own technical expertise and then there's no need for an organization like us, well, how do we build that?
18:02
And we can't build it with people with the same amount of skill sets. We need people that you know have diverse backgrounds. So we use this analogy like building a house you can't build a house with just plumbers. You need to have, you know, an architect, you need to have somebody there who's going to have an expertise in building inspection, you need to have an electrician, so that you know you come with a well-built house. So that's almost like our governance here.
18:33
We have people you know, we have an accountant on our board, we have engineers, we have people with financial backgrounds, we have people with political or governance expertise and we also have to ensure that the representation is there. But also we have women on board. So you know, that's really important and like that was a major challenge and I'm not going to say it's an obstacle, because an obstacle sometimes you can't overcome, but it was a challenge and basically it's made the organization better, Not to say that there's still kinks that we don't have to work out, but you know it's a really well-oiled machine. I'm going to say
19:16
[Progress is happening and it's we're evolving and we're moving into the 21st century Full steam ahead, I would say, so yeah], and knowing that too, you have to give your staff the autonomy and I like, like I say, people who micromanage, they don't know how to manage, so you give your team the trust and the anatomy to be able to move that, you know, that benchmark forward.
19:42
And like with our strategic plan, because the people that work for you if you give them the freedom to use their imaginations, they can advance, you know, what you're working on, like, like the stuff that you've taught me, or my executive assistant, Corey Hill, and then seeing the younger team that we have in today and the technology that to make my life easier and showing me how to use it [yeah,] like it just makes me that much better and frees up time for me to do other things within the organization. So it's nurturing. It's nurturing that and, you know, being mentors for them. [That's awesome, yeah.]
20:21 - Chelsey (Host)
And I mean one of the things that I've noticed just in the past five years here is that we do have a really strong female representation, like even if you look at our whole environment services department, it's all female lead and female driven. So it's really encouraging, at least for me, to see that. And I'm just curious as to your thoughts on that trend. Do you feel like you see more women going into technical careers, and what are your thoughts on the future in that regard?
20:54 - Melanie (Guest)
I see, like, obviously, with like that's a perfect example with our environment team, and we would like to get more women in the technical field, more female engineers, more female building inspectors, water operators.
21:10
I think it's a trend. People only become what they see around them and, you know, through the work that you do, through our communications, through our our TYCOP project, you know, demonstrating that these are career options out there, these are roles that you can take on and you can still live in your community. You know, but you're going to have to travel because we service, you know, a lot of, a lot of communities that are only accessible by, you know, a plane. They're remote, yeah, but if people don't see the opportunities, they don't know that they're there. Yeah, and I think that you've done a really excellent job of demonstrating, well, what's the role like in the life of a water operator, yeah, or a building inspector, and I think it's that marketing and you know, if you continue sharing it, you know people are going to see it and I feel that as an organization, we're doing that. We're getting out there,
22:05 - Chelsey (Host)
yeah, well, it's something that's really important. It's, like you said, just making that available and making it accessible so that people can see that it's possible, right, like, like you said, if you don't see it, you won't be it. So that's kind of the stuff we're trying to do through the technical youth career outreach program (TYCOP). But is there anything else that you think that we still need to do to continue removing barriers for women to enter the work workforce?
22:30 - Melanie (Guest)
Yes, I think that there should be key metrics set, where you know, we're meeting a minimum standard of this, hiring this many women in this field. But in order to get to that metric, we also have to be planning the seed. [Yes,] so that in three or four years we'll have, we'll have qualified people. [Yeah], so if we look at, okay, we're going to do this amount of outreach and we're going to hope in four years we're going to have these, like maybe we need 10 more employees that are female, well, have you done outreach to 10 people and encourage them to go to school? Yeah, and it's putting that path in place because you can't just say build it and they will come. No, you gotta nurture that. It's not going to happen overnight.
23:17 - Chelsey (Host)
Do you think that women have a unique perspective to contribute to technical careers and to this kind of work that we're doing Like? Do you think that that is an important thing to look at when looking at these kinds of careers?
23:33 - Melanie (Guest)
I'm going to say yes because I go back to, like our water teachings and you know, like, women are the only people that are able to give life and build life and we're born in water and we come from water and we're keepers of that water and then when we see our young female water operators out there taking care of the water, that's our inherent right to do that.
24:00
So I think it's just a career path that women typically were never given options or demonstrated that that is an option Typically, you know, majority of us, you know we grew up on reservations and the options that you see out there are very minimal. You see what's around you and the options in your community. So you either take up social work, you become a police officer, you become a teacher or you run your own business. But those are the typical things that you see and it's not like everybody who's in those careers in my community or other communities. I'm proud of them, I'm so glad that they decided to stay and work for our own people. But had they have known that there was other options out there, maybe they might have chose a career path in the technical industry. But not knowing, yeah right.
24:57 - Chelsey (Host)
Yeah, for sure it's all part of the important work that we're doing and hopefully we will see those careers blossom with more women in the future. But I also am curious. I would love to learn more about what you do in your personal life to invest in yourself. Self-care is a big buzzword these days, right? Self-care taking a bath, lighting candles, reading books, that kind of stuff. What do you do to invest in yourself?
25:27 - Melanie (Guest)
Oh, this is. I get teased about it. Sometimes I enjoy CrossFit.
25:35 - Chelsey (Host)
I knew you were going to say that.
25:37 - Melanie (Guest)
CrossFit, it's a community. You meet lifelong friends there. Everybody's so positive because they're exercising. You set your own personal goals to your max, deadlift everything that you can do max and you max it out. You progress as fast as you want. But it also helps you de-stress, because these jobs that we do, the balance that it takes, balancing governance, staff, financial, human resources and the things that go through my head in a day, I just need to decompress, and CrossFit allows me to do that. It also keeps me moving, though. It keeps me physically fit, and not that I can't be fitter I could if I worked harder at it, but I don't have so much time in a day.
26:32
I honestly say, if you're not, you can nurture your mind, which is through reading, continuous education, but you also have to take care of your body, but also your spirit, and whether that be through cultural teachings, going to church or even meditating, whatever you enjoy to do, you have to do those things, like the bath part that you said. Those things are important, the little things that make you happy. Keep doing them. You have to, because if you don't, you're not going to succeed in your professional life. And yeah, I can't say anything more about how important it is to take care of your body. You've got one body and exercise it because you don't want to have the inability not to do something physical when you're older.
27:24 - Chelsey (Host)
Yeah, and we talk a lot about work-life balance, right, I think, coming out of the pandemic with the hybrid model that we have now, it's a little bit more attainable for some people to have that work-life balance and important, I guess, to do that self-care as well. So that's really interesting. And I know whenever we're together, you and I, we always like to talk about books, so I'm curious as to what book are you reading right now?
27:51 - Melanie (Guest)
It's, the author is, I believe her name is Michelle. Good, oh, yeah, okay, and I'm just trying to remember the title. I can't off the top of my head, but that's the book I'm reading right now. Yeah, okay, nice, and I know we had a reading.
28:06 - Chelsey (Host)
We did have a book club here and [I'm not sure where that's at right now.] It went defunct.
28:11 - Melanie (Guest)
It went away, but I think like we should start it out again. We should start it up again Because I remember you and I setting some goals there, saying okay, I'm going to read one book a month this year, or my goal is to read 30 books. So that's nurturing your brain also. [Yeah.] And however you read, as long as you don't like to read books, read magazines, but [or news articles,] news articles yeah, I really think sometimes people spend too much time on social media. Yes.
28:38
And they want quick turnarounds because those reels are really fast, but that's not always how things work, yeah yeah, and like it's reading it helps advance your mind.
28:50 - Chelsey (Host)
And, like you were saying, is there anything else Like what's next for you in terms of like either your career, like are you looking at doing more professional advancement or like are you just enjoying where you're at in life right now?
29:04 - Melanie (Guest)
I'm really enjoying this position, [yeah], Like we're changing the quality of life for people, our First Nations people. We're changing that quality of life and the basics in life is having access to clean drinking water and having our hub team and making the change that we do with the communities that we work with, like we're impacting the lives of families, of children, and if that means that they have clean drinking water and they're able to have a drink from the tap, then they're able to bathe in that water and go to school. So I'm really enjoying that part, knowing that I'm making a change with this organization and our team. Moving forward, So back in 2010 to 2012, I took a course at Rotman School of Management, the Institute of Corporate Directors, and so I have a professional corporate director designation and my dream was to sit on professional corporate boards. So since that time I've had the opportunity. I'm actually the longest standing board member right now with the Ontario Clean Water Agency. So I got appointed back in 2013 to that board. So it's been over 10 years.
30:20
[Wow] and that's a provincial crown. Yeah. I'm also. I just got appointed last January to the board of Legal Aid Ontario. [Ok].
30:31
And it's a great board. One of the things that I wanted to change, though, and why I agreed to sit on that board, is because of the amount of our people that are incarcerated or that have access to lawyers and legal certificates, and if you take that number and you look at the metric of people having access to legal advice versus people going to jail, I said, if I can help change a policy and how those certificates are given out so that our people can have proper legal representation, then maybe I can change and impact people's lives or the lives of their children. So that's why I agreed to that board, because I thought that I could make a meaningful impact. The last board that I'm on is it's a federal crown. It's the Canada Energy Regulator. It used to be known as the National Energy Board, but they changed how it's governed, so, as of last August, so I was appointed there in 2019.
31:30
And as of last August, I became the vice chair of the Canada Energy Regulator, which it's a lot more responsibility. It was a huge learning curve, but seeing where the world is headed and looking at the changes with the net zero, 2050 electrification, but then also seeing where water is headed globally those are key areas that I wanted to dive into so that I have a clear understanding, and then I'm also able to bring that knowledge back to our communities. If we're just starting to build ourselves up back as a nation, how can we compete if we don't have that knowledge? So I'm hoping that with this board experience, the next company that I'm able to sit on as a director once I'm done serving for the provinces and for Canada I'm hoping perhaps to sit on a publicly traded company.
32:35 - Chelsey (Host)
Oh, wow, that'll be really amazing. So kudos to you, Mel, for all of your accomplishments. It's just been amazing inspiring to me as well just watching you and working with you, and just to close us out here today. I would love to hear if you have any advice for any younger women who might be listening to this. What would you say?
32:59 - Melanie (Guest)
Well, first, number one is stay in school. Like, don't stop. And if you have a goal and a dream, well, don't think that it's unattainable, it 100% is. And set your priorities and don't think that barriers are there because you can't overcome them. Look at those as something that pushes you forward.
33:27
Because I've had people ask me in the past oh well, yeah, you went to Indian Day School. You grew up on a reservation and almost taking a negative approach to it. Where I looked at it, hey, this was positive for me. Like, look at where I came out on the other end and I don't look at that as a bad thing. I'm like, no, I broke through that and I'm getting to the next and I want to be better and how can I do that?
33:54
So, yeah, these young women, they need to stay in school. And don't let because you see even our rising birth rate for indigenous people in Canada, we're the largest, fastest growing population Don't let having children stop you from going to school, because that isn't a reason to quit, that's a reason to drive you and motivate you so that you can do better for your family. And I say the same thing to men. Stay in school, keep learning. We were a great nation at one time. We're still a great nation, and can you imagine if the colonization didn't happen where our people would be today? And that's blood memory. So that's ending on a positive note. Yeah, we're a great nation.
34:47 - Chelsey (Host)
I completely agree. So thank you again for taking time to sit down for the podcast. I know it's been a real pleasure to talk to you and work with you, and thank you for all your mentorship you've provided me over the years. So yeah, just if there's anything else you'd like to add, please go ahead. But if not, Chi-Migwetch Mel, thanks so much for talking to us today. Yeah, Miigwetch, Nya:weh.
*Transcript provided by Podium
