The following is an auto-generated transcript of an episode of OFNTSC's Podcast "Ontario First Nations Technically Speaking 'Cast" hosted by Chelsey Johnson.
In this episode, Operations & Maintenance Supervisor Elmer Lickers discusses the history of the OFNTSC as well as what the future holds for his service and its projects.
Listen to the episode here
00:06 - Chelsey
Hello again, everybody, and welcome back to the third episode of Technically Speaking OFNTSC's podcast. So today I'm really excited because we have one of my favorite coworkers, elmar Lickers, here today to talk to us about everything from his entire journey with the organization having been here since basically the beginning, and through to how things have evolved into adapting to climate change and tackling those big issues. So I'm really excited to welcome you, elmar. Hello, how are you today?
00:46 - Elmer
Well, I'm just really good. Thank you very much for having me, and happy new year, nu:ya!
00:52 - Chelsey
Yeah, nu:ya!
00:53 - Elmer
And I'm glad you said your favorite, because if you did, I was going to throw that in there, so excited. Yeah, this is relatively new to me and I'll explain to you and as you mentioned my journey, on how that is new to me and I'm excited to be here.
01:11 - Chelsey
Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. I kind of wanted to talk to you because we are coming up on an organization on our 30 year anniversary next year and you've been around here since the beginning in 1995, and even I don't know if you were here a little bit before that, before things became official with the organization. But my very first question for you is can you tell us from your experience how OFNTSC came into existence and what the climate was like at the time, either politically? How did that happen? How did organization form in the very beginning?
01:52 - Elmer
Well, yeah, this is going way back and I think at that time there was a lot of unknown and knowing what needed to be done as far as this big buzzword at that time devolution and what did that really entail. But from my earlier knowledge of the organization and the ad hoc committee that were in negotiations with INAC at that time, indigenous Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada was how are we going to formalize an organization to take a look at devolving the services that were being done by the federal government to a First Nations entity? And I was privy to some of that information because prior to coming to OFNTSC I was with INAC. So I knew that some discussions were happening and I thought this is kind of exciting Because, rightfully, first Nations were starting to get better equipped to take some of those roles on. But how do we go about doing it? And, knowing the vision of the organization and their focus around the mandate, I thought it was a really exciting opportunity.
03:10
So that was my first recollection of what was devolving from INAC at that time to a First Nations entity and to be part of a core service which, in my role at INAC, was Operation Ambulance, and to be part of the core services of the OFNTSC.
03:33
It was exciting, very exciting, so much that when I had to role at INAC, we were pretty much providing limited information to First Nations and I thought that to be very strange. So I took it upon myself to take a look at. I think we need to give First Nations a lot better information in order for them to take a look at their infrastructure in a different approach, more like a holistic approach. So, that said, I wanted to give the communities a lot more information around their infrastructure and why that information was important for them, and I think that really created the interest of me to be really excited to be part of this organization. So when they did form, I was asked to join from INAC to OFNTSC and there was some slight hesitation all of about 30 seconds. And here I am, almost 30 years later with this organization and still just as excited.
04:40 - Chelsey
That's amazing. So I did a little bit of research. A few months ago we had a presentation. I gave a little bit of an overview of the history, which I had never really delved into before. But through looking at the old annual reports and looking through some of the older documents I got the sense that it was a very important moment for First Nations when OFNTSC was formed, in giving that autonomy back to them to take back control of these technical services. Was that how you felt at the time?
05:16 - Elmer
Yeah, I think the organization with its vision set the framework on how that could have been done.
05:23
But there was a real disconnect on devolving from federal government to OFNTSC, to First Nations, and how could that be connected in such a way that we can generate some level of confidence at the community level that what they're getting at the end of the day from the services provided by OFNTSC is valid and makes sense.
05:51
So it was kind of a challenge in the beginning. But having that clear vision of an organization driven by First Nations was really the first benchmark that the communities sort of looked at in really grasp, not to say that if it were any other entity out there that may have not been First Nations that they would have. I'm not too sure, I'm just saying that, being a First Nation organization, the First Nations really found it was a place to go to Over time as the programs evolved and more information was available and the organization was very structured in a way that we could manipulate that information and make it relevant and effective for First Nations. And I think that was really a key, that this organization had a creative mindset that we could go and do that and make it a benefit for our communities. To me, I think that was the win-win for our communities as well as this organization.
07:00 - Chelsey
Very cool. Yeah. Since you've been here from the beginning, have you changed roles a couple of times. What was your role at the very beginning, and how has that evolved over time to what you do today?
07:14 - Elmer
Well, my role is still the same. I'm still an advisor. I think I've been referred to as an advisor from day one, but the role of actually doing at that time versus advising in today's time has changed. That's only due to the fact of I mentioned earlier about this transfer of knowledge and the way that I looked at it was. You look at it as almost like a pyramid and OFN TSE at top of that and we're there to provide a service and transfer that information. And we were doing that.
07:55
And as we got bigger and better and we came well versed in what the needs are of the First Nations and in complying with those federal regulations and requirements, we became better at it.
08:07
So that transfer of knowledge at the top of the pyramid started going down to the communities and it started with tribal councils and they were below us in that pyramid and then it started getting into First Nations and they were part of that pyramid. So that level of information started to get better. So I always thought that at one point in time we should be really putting ourselves out of business, because we're transferring that knowledge and our objective is to make sure that First Nations have that capacity. It's gotten better. I don't think there will ever be not a need for OFN TSE, because there will always be that need. There'll always be a need for tribal councils to provide that local level expertise and there'll always be a need for us to work in that pyramid fashion to make sure that we're strengthening that capacity. So this whole concept of the organizations in our service and the delivery of that service is continuously growing.
09:16 - Chelsey
It's very unique too. It's a unique solution. I think OFN TSE is the only organization of its kind in Canada, as far as I know, so it's very interesting in that sense. But looking back at the history of the organization, what are some of the standout moments for you, of accomplishments where you're like, wow, we really made a difference.
09:41 - Elmer
Yeah, well, I'm going to piggyback on your earlier question and talk about some of the roles. I know we were growing and we had a lot of growing pains, and when we decided to form them as an organization and develop and put bodies into positions, how was that information going to be exchanged? So when we looked at setting up an annual conference, for example, that was my role.
10:14 - Chelsey
At the beginning. That was your role.
10:15 - Elmer
The very first conference that was held in 1996 was a conference that was shared between OFN, tse and the Mall Council of Aquasocene. We held it in Cornwall and, lucky me, I got the short end of the straw and I started coordinating and setting up the agenda small trade show, the speakers, the venue and the list goes on. Yeah, at that time I was so excited, so full of energy, and it was exciting to see that people come to want to get that kind of information. So that was one of the key roles that I had. That has evolved, as you know, into an event that is really a go-to event. If you want to take a look at what First Nations are doing in the areas of not only just O&M asset management but all the services that we provide. It's just a wonderful event. So I mean, as we evolved and I got into more than 10 events, it was very, very overwhelming.
11:29
It takes a lot of planning, a lot of organizations, a lot of on-site business, as you know. So we formalized the committee and started delegating roles and it worked for this organization. So that was a huge role. And I recall, back in 2012 and there was another one on top of that was the First Nations Water Symposium and I was in charge of that and I remember sitting with the executive director at that time and I said I can't do this anymore If we have to formalize committees, because it's killing me.
12:04 - Chelsey
You were doing it by yourself, without a committee, at first.
12:06 - Elmer
Yeah.
12:07 - Chelsey
Okay, yeah, that's a lot.
12:08 - Elmer
I think it was probably about 2000 and might have been around that 10 or 11 where we started formalizing smaller committees because trade show was a huge one, yeah, yeah, huge, and you know I can't handle that agenda and go trade show no Plus doing your other job.
12:29 - Chelsey
Basically, that's like a full-time job on its own.
12:31 - Elmer
Oh my god, yeah, yeah, and it took a long time and I'm trying to juggle out with my current role but to figure out, you know, on the O&M side, I got to make sure First Nations understand the concepts around O&M. At the same time, I got to make sure that these exhibitors have the right floor space and I got to make sure that you know, we're doing the proper reporting requirements and making sure we satisfy INEC at that time and our annual reporting requirements, agers and Elis goes on. But yeah, and on top of that, oh my god, I talked to the hotel about this and that, yeah, it is. It was exciting, it was just a wonderful opportunity, but it is exhausting.
13:12 - Chelsey
It's rewarding, but it is so much work going into events and that kind of thing yeah.
13:17 - Elmer
Well, I think the rewards come when you take a look at your First Nations and when they get there and they see, and they walk away and says you know, this is such a great event.
13:26 - Chelsey
Yeah.
13:27 - Elmer
And I'm so glad I came, and the Water Symposium was one of them. I even forgot the name of the children's water festival. That was just an amazing event. Wow, we invited the local communities from their elementary school to participate in a water festival. Unbelievable, it was just great. And on top of that the First Nations were getting well-versed in O&M. We knew we had our challenges, we knew that there were needs to some change and they were getting good information, not only from the program but from the strengths of our other programs the engineering department, our environmental department, our housing department, our fire department. We're all engaged with these communities to make sure that they were well-equipped to take a look at their infrastructure and take a look at their needs and try and find and bridge those gaps that will help them in the long run. So exciting times.
14:27 - Chelsey
You mentioned O&M a couple of times. I also hear you talk about asset management a lot. For a lay person such as myself, can you go a little bit deeper into what is operations and maintenance and tail versus asset management? Are they the same thing? What are each of those names mean?
14:47 - Elmer
Yeah, asset management I'll start there and then I'll drill down. And asset management we look at from cradle to grave on our assets, the full life cycle of our facilities. So when we look at an infrastructure, there's obviously some attention at the community levels to take a look at the planning and the investments of that infrastructure. Whether it's housing, whether it's water, wastewater, roads, bridges, doesn't really matter. There's a level of planning and investment to acquire that infrastructure. There's also a need at the end of that to take a look at renewal, what you need in order to put into place the proper capital for renewal of that infrastructure and that's the full life cycle.
15:39
That concept was never really considered in the earlier parts of First Nations understanding the policy procedures of the federal government, which was really O&M. So when we look at asset management, as I mentioned, from acquiring to disposal or cradle to grave, there's a component in between called O&M. You need to operate and maintain that asset in order to reach its full life cycle and protect that investment. So O&M is just part of the full life cycle of community infrastructure. So in the earlier stages with this organization, my role was just focused on O&M making sure First Nations knew their infrastructure, knew the condition, knew the deficiencies and knew it was in order to bring those assets up into a reasonable standard. That was first and foremost.
16:36
Now that they understand their infrastructure, we started moving into a whole different approach around asset management and taking a look at well, there also has to be areas of taking a look at, not only addressing the needs and deficiencies but the renewal of those assets as they become near the end of their life. So there's been a shift from O&M to asset management in First Nations and this has been happening, I would probably guess, in the last decade, and more so in the last three or four years with our communities, since we as an organization have provided them with some great tools that focus on asset management. And so that shift is now moving in the eyes of First Nations and they're not just looking at this reactive approach around their infrastructure, but a very proactive approach about not only planning, building, operating, maintaining but renewing their assets.
17:37 - Chelsey
Wow, it sounds like there's again, along with the events. There's so much thought and work that has to go into that and I know that one of your kind of capstone projects that you've worked on over the years is the First Nations Infrastructure Resilience Toolkit. So, shifting gears over to that, could you tell us what is that toolkit and how does it fit into that asset management O&M category?
18:07 - Elmer
Wow, yeah, I must first put a plug into the organization and the First Nation Infrastructure Resilient Toolkit, as I may say, an award-winning toolkit.
18:21 - Chelsey
Yes.
18:22 - Elmer
It is an award for its innovation and I'm excited to be part of that the concepts that we were wanting to do in making sure First Nations had good tools with their infrastructure not just creating something independently because, as I mentioned earlier, we have that creativity that we probably could have but to take a look at what the industry is doing and the concepts of asset management. So we went out and took a look at what the industry was doing and borrowed some of the best practices in our development. So the First Nations Infrastructure Resilient Toolkit, which I'll refer to as the FNIRT, really looked at a very structured approach on one cataloging First Nations infrastructure, which is critically important, and I mentioned earlier that we spent so much time knowing what we have, what the condition is, what the deficiencies are and what our needs are. We spent a great deal of time we spent even while I was with INAC, prior to 1995, so we had a very good, strong history of our infrastructure database and that was the building block, the cornerstone, of building the FNIRT. The second part was well, we didn't want to exclude the fact that climate is impacting our communities and it's also having some impacts on how we operate and maintain our infrastructure. So we wanted to make sure that climate and climate considerations were part of the process. So we built again, went out there and took a look at what the industry is doing and built a module that looks at doing climate risk assessments. And this was again built on best practices that were done by an organization for municipalities called Engineers Canada, and we used their methodology and tested it, tweaked it for First Nations and hence became part of our FNIRT. Good to have good data, great to have climate risk considerations. What do you do with it? Well, we needed to put all those pieces together and we took a look at the fundamentals around asset management and again went out there and took a look at what the industry is doing, from sophistication to very, very complex software which just would not fly in First Nations, to something that's a little bit more adaptable and flexible for First Nations. So we borrowed from another organization in Alberta, which was the Municipalities of Alberta, and utilized their Excel spreadsheet, and we used this in part of our beta testing. We tweaked it, modified it, adapted it for First Nations and built an asset management component in the FNIRT.
21:31
So vision, three modules One you need good data. One you need to know what kind of data you have and what are the conditions and what are the attributes that you need in order to plan for infrastructure. As I mentioned, you need to plan, build, operate, maintain and renew. We got that. We also wanted to make sure that we didn't exclude the climate considerations in our planning. We have that and we want to take all that good data, put it in the process for asset management and that was the third part of our FNIRT. So in here it was born and launched in 2022. It's growing, it's getting better. The interest is just I can't keep up with the interest that people want access to it. So really excited that this whole process wasn't something that was just created. It was built on best practices and we took it upon ourselves to tweak it and modify it for First Nations, making it relevant for them. So very excited about that.
22:36 - Chelsey
Yeah, that was actually going to be part of. My next question is what are some of the differences for First Nations that makes the toolkit unique to them compared to, let's say, just an off-community location?
22:58 - Elmer
Yeah, that's a great, great, great question, because when we looked at this in the early stages, especially on the climate side, one of the things that was happening with the model that we're using from Engineers, Canada didn't really look at traditional or local knowledge and we had that component.
23:22
So when we started doing some case studies and start building this, we wanted to make sure that we engage with the youth and the elders at the community levels and they were part of sharing that local traditional knowledge in our process. So that became some of the requirements. When we start looking at climate considerations, we wanted to make sure that that traditional knowledge was part of it, so that became a unique factor in the toolkit. So when we look at the asset management side and I keep saying this, there are over 600 communities in Canada and we deal with 134 of them in Ontario Everyone is unique. Everyone is unique and this is the pride that I get about knowing that when we start building applications, you have to take that uniqueness and consideration and make sure you adapt your toolkit to accommodate. And this is what the toolkit does. It allows that flexibility and that's what I think is the real wind behind this toolkit. It was built for First Nations by First Nations, using industry approach, and I think there's just a win-win-win story on that one.
24:41 - Chelsey
Yeah, that sounds amazing and such an important project. I've always been interested in and passionate about protecting Mother Earth and, just with everything happening today with climate change, I'm curious to hear your take on. What are the unique issues that First Nations are seeing from climate change?
25:09 - Elmer
Yeah, another great question and you know we're at the early stages of taking science and traditional knowledge and putting them together in a content of a technical approach and to balance that between and try to make some sense of, you know, how climate is impacting the First Nations. I don't think we would have accomplished knowing that if we didn't take that local traditional knowledge and consideration. We could have used science and we could have used the technical approach and we would end up with a, you know, a report based on needs but, knowing the traditional approach about it, it really hones in on what those local concerns are. And, as I mentioned, every community is unique on its own and has its own challenges. Some of the simple ones that come out of there is. You know we've engaged some of the youth in some of our assessments and you would think it's minute. But when the children say, well, for some reason our berries are smaller this year, it's because of climate impacts and the drought season that that community is having. And you know when the migration path of their hunt seasons are changing, it's because of the you know, the climate impacts that are having in the community.
26:44
Accessibility is huge, especially in our remote winter road communities. You know they're changing. What goes along with that, while you put the technical spin to it is you got that accessibility problem. Now you're introducing very high transportation problems, so they need to be part of the consideration. So you take a look at those local conditions, put the technical spin to it and bring in the science and you put it all together and you end up with a solution. Or you end up with a with an issue and then you come up with a solution to help in the mitigation. So and I guess that, like I said earlier, that wouldn't have really transpired if we didn't incorporate the traditional component of what's happening in those local communities and I just mentioned a couple of them, but there are so many others say. But we take a look at what we've experienced over the last 24 days of 2024. We're getting flash floods of winter rain.
27:45 - Chelsey
Yeah.
27:46 - Elmer
You know, when I grew up, I never had that.
27:48 - Chelsey
Yeah.
27:49 - Elmer
And then we're getting winter rains with deep freeze, and so you got to adapt to those conditions and so and this is part of the process when we start cataloging all this information, the toolkit allows us to record that and making sure that we have that knowledge and keep that that knowledge in the community and it's documented. So, I mean, when I retire and you retire and we all see that eventually, but we have something that we can leave so that, you know, some of the younger generations can take this information and start doing their planning for the future.
28:27 - Chelsey
Yeah, I know you've been working with is it Mama Westwin? The North Shore Tribal Council and piloting some of the toolkit work. What are the next steps with the toolkit? What do you hope? Where do you hope it goes Well? How does it? How do you hope you see it flourishing?
28:43 - Elmer
Wow. The next steps? In short, the next step is use it. Get it out to the First Nations. It's there, it's free, it's yours, it's been developed for you. Use it. The next step is as far as this organization. Well, we need to really focus on how we're going to make sure that that toolkit is used properly, how we can position ourselves so when First Nations are applying the toolkit and they have questions, we're there to respond and provide that support. Where do I see it going beyond this? Oh, my goodness, it's just exciting, exciting times.
29:21
The North Shore Tribal Council is part of a really exciting project that we have with them. You know they're a wonderful group that they're so actively involved in helping their communities. We've got a great project team there and the asset management team in those communities have been great. The climate risk assessment team in the two communities are just right on with being totally engaged and how climate is impacting and bringing that message to the project. So you know these are part of the processes that are going to improve the toolkit and how we can tweak it and make it better and simple for other First Nations.
30:09
What came out of the North Shore Tribal Council was a very interesting initiative that we recently signed with another entity called the Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions and PICS. I'll call them. We signed an agreement with them to take a look at a couple of things. One is to do a video documentary on how climate is impacting First Nations, and we elected to use the North Shore Tribal Council and their two communities that are doing climate risk assessment, and I'll give a shout out to those two communities Sagamuk, anishinaabek and Batchewana. First Nations, great communities, great examples, have two different perspectives as far as climate and climate considerations, are very excited about this. What will come out of the next steps of this whole process is we'll create a documentary around those two communities and use this as a storytelling on how climate is impacting First Nations and how the tool is being used to address those, those climate vulnerabilities.
31:22
The other part of our agreement is we're always hinged on good data and we're fortunate with this organization. We've always had good data and I think it's just a just a testimony that you know. Indian Affairs at one point in time, as they were called now their isk have forced us to make a look and make us look at our infrastructure and catalog and making sure that we report it. Well, it turned out that that was a good process. So we've always had good data and now that we have this good data and good tools, we are looking at working with PICS to try and link the FNIRT with their climate data and using their newly launched Indigenous Climate Atlas to marry the two together.
32:12
So if First Nations want to take a look at the climate risk assessments, the first question asked is where do I get the data? The indigenous climate atlas First Nations look at the indigenous climate atlas is wow, good data. Where do I get the tools? F and I are T. It's just a great marriage that we have with PICS and we're excited that this is just recently launched, that we're moving forward to make this part of the next steps for the F and I are T. On top of that, one of the other components of our agreement with PICS is we're going to create some very comprehensive climate and asset management awareness workshops. So that'll be coming, so stay tuned for that.
33:00 - Chelsey
Yeah, definitely. That sounds really exciting and I cannot wait to see that documentary as well. I know I was included on the call about that and it just sounds like it's going to be so exciting and really, really interesting. Well, it sounds like there's so much work ahead in the future, but all of the things that you've accomplished over your time here at the organization I just want to say thank you for myself personally for all the work that you've done, and if you would like to add anything else to talk about today, please by all means go ahead.
33:33 - Elmer
Well, you're welcome and I appreciate your comments and I use this message to some of our younger staff as they come in and they stop by my office and we chat and I'm excited to see the young, eager faces here and a lot of bright staff members here that are coming into your organization. It's happy to see that. But I always say one thing that we're here for one reason to provide a service. And if you think your reasons are outside of that, then you're probably not here for the right reason. And I carry that with me from the day I started this organization and I recall one of my last conversations I had with my supervisor at INAC at that time was the day that I see our communities in a position to sustain our infrastructure is the day that I retire.
34:32
And it was a big challenge because our communities didn't really understand the inventory infrastructure back in 1995.
34:40
And we got in tune with that and now that we've been as an organization holistically in all the programs providing very qualified levels of service or services to our First Nations, in all the capacities, that information is getting better in our communities, they're starting to be engaged with how they look at their assets, how they plan and protect our infrastructure and how they see the future of their communities. So they've really taken the leadership away from not knowing what they have but taking really good ownership of their assets, and to me they're starting. They're almost at that point where they're in a position to sustain their infrastructure. So my job is done. I can retire. Until the latest news I've heard recently, more interest is coming on a national level and I'm hoping things happen that it's going to be positive for this organization, because anything we do with the passion that we have with the staff is meant to improve our communities and their living conditions, and to me that's what it's all about. We're here for that service.
36:02 - Chelsey
Absolutely. Yes, great words, alma. Thank you so much for sharing that message, and I also just wanted to put a plug in here for the website for the toolkit, which is firstnationsirtorg. So if anybody listening wants to learn more about the toolkit, it's all available at the website. And I also did want to mention that we do now have transcripts available for the podcast. They are available on our OFNTSC website as well, so if anybody would like to access the transcripts, they're there for you. Nyahogoa Elmer, thank you so much for joining us today, and I can't wait to see where everything goes with the toolkit and all the work that you've done. So thank you.
36:45 - Elmer
And yeah, thank you for having me.
